D-mannose - antifungal without die-off?

Discussion started by Maff , on Tuesday, 21 June 2011 13:39

In a recent discussion with my doctor we were talking about ways to treat my intestinal Candida/yeast overgrowth without producing "die-off" symptoms which for me are all brain/CNS-related and are totally excruciating and unbearable after only a week of treatment with antifungals.

 

My doctor said she had been speaking with a gastroenterologist who had said that D-mannose (readily available as a supplement) could "unstick" Candida/yeast cells from the wall of the intestine without damaging them. They would then be expelled with bowel movements and no toxins would be released as they would with typical antifungals which punch holes in the cells or dissolve them etc.

 

D-Mannose is well known to be effective against E.coli in this way but I have not found any research suggesting it would do the same for Candida/yeast. Anyone heard of this before?

 

 

 

 

Replies
Bushi
Hey Maff, out of curiosity, how much nystatin are you planning to take? I'm hoping to be able to pick up some rifaximin or vancomycin from my break in Turkey in August. After I get back i'll start thinking about the FTT. I'll be taking loperamide to get me through the holiday as usual.

Here's another article recently published which is quite interesting:
'In this study, 320 patients underwent an endoscopy of their upper GI tract, from which a small bowel culture was cultivated. Of those patients with IBS, 37.5 percent were positive for bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine, compared to fewer than 10 percent of those who did not have the disorder. The overgrowth was more prevalent in those with the diarrhea-predominant version of the disease. Researchers also found more different kinds of bacteria in IBS patients'

http://www.endonurse.com/news/2011/06/ibs-linked-to-bacterial-overgrowth-and-food-poisoning.aspx

Remember that the Cedars-Sinai hospital where Dr Pimental works is desperately trying to push through rifaximin (xiafaxan) as a treatment for IBS. The decision to have it accepted as a viable option to treat IBS was recently pushed backed by the FDA in the U.S. . Remember, Dr Pimental owns the patent for the drug (produced by salix pharmaceuticals) and if it is pushed through the share price for this drug will already go through the roof. It has already tripled to 40 dollars in the last year or so. Dr Pimental does believe that flora (bacteria) is one of the main causes of IBS but he also has a vested interest in it's share price.

From all the forums i've read, people seem to have a 50:50 success rate with it and from what i've seen in many cases people get relief for a few months before that bad bacteria probably reappears. I tried rifaximin some time back and had no success with it at all. I was convinced it was the answer to my problems, just in the way the antibiotic works. Alas, it was not.

My search continues..... I believe Fecal Bacteriotherapy to be my holy grail! ;-)

PS: Started taking D-Mannose today and will start Hydrochloric acid (750mgs) this weekend to aid with digestion. Will keep you posted.
1016 days ago
 
Maff
Maff,
Now considering whether d-mannose will work for this purpose or whether it needs to be in the form of mannanoligosaccharide (MOS) as referred to in the article which isn't absorbed well through the intestinal wall. Problem is I can't find any standalone MOS supplements that would allow me to use large amounts in one go to flush out the bad bugs from my small intestine. All I've found are probiotics with a bit of MOS added.

I guess I'll go with d-mannose and hope that using large quantities will mean a lot of it is not absorbed by the body and is able to bind to the undesirable microbes and carry them into my colon.
1016 days ago
 
Maff
Maff,
Hey Bushi,

That's right - the final countdown! I'll be starting my preparation next week with high dose nystatin and a bunch of natural antifungals, along with a strict low carb/stone age diet. In the final week I'll be on 1600mg/day of rifaximin to tackle SIBO and will also do some bowel wash outs with a load of d-mannose.

I'm still waiting on results from my Metametrix GI Effects test having said all that. But I don't expect that to affect my preperation or schedule too much. It was mainly to have a "before" picture and I'll then retest after the HPIs to see if there was any measureable change. I'm a bit of a geek so even though I feel sick as a dog and am doing this to get well...I still want to do a bit of science as well ;)

Many thanks for that link. I've discovered that veterinary medicine is often a lot further forward in researching effects of gut ecology on health than medicine is in us humans. That article cites studies showing mannose can prevent various types of bacteria adhering to the gut wall including E. coli, Clostridium sp and Salmonella sp. Even if it doesn't work that way with Candida/yeast it sounds like it will be a helpful addition for reducing bacterial load in my small intestine.

Oh I forgot to mention I was going to take a few enzyme supplements to try to tackle microbial biofilms during my HPI preperation as well. Still need to do a bit of reading on that though!
1016 days ago
 
Bushi
Hey Maff, you are definitely on countdown to your treatment in August. You must be anxious! I'm anxious for you! lol! I found this article which references Mannose with animals and discusses the positive effects it has with reducing pathogens such ecoli and other bacterial strains. It's a bit lengthy but if you just scan it by searching for the word 'mannose' you'll get the general gist of the study.

http://etd.fcla.edu/UF/UFE0004720/spearman_k.pdf
1017 days ago
 
Maff
Maff,
Hi all,

Nyx - That's exactly right. The idea with the d-mannose treatment is that instead of binding to the d-mannose in the intestinal wall and setting up colonies, if you saturate the gut with large amounts of d-mannose by taking it orally the Candida will bind to that d-mannose instead and both will be carried out of the body with bowel movements. That's the theory as it was explained to me - I have not seen any evidence of whether it works or not but I'll be giving it a go myself in the coming weeks.

Incidentally, I think the gastroenterologist that suggested this was Australian, Dr. Henry Butt. (apologies to Dr. Butt if this is not the case!)

Thanks for the links guys. The Candida Library does look like it will be a very helpful resource for us poor souls at the mercy of this bug. It already has some great articles. I have to admit Bushi that the internal use of iodine as an antimicrobial is not something I have looked into. One of those things that's been in my peripheral vision but I've never explored - thanks for the reminder. I agree with you on the probiotics issue. Current products don't come close to providing the variety, quality and quantity of microbes needed to effectively restore healthy gut ecology when it has become badly disturbed. I have reached the point in my research and treatment efforts where faecal transplant/HPI makes the most sense so this is what I'll be doing in August!
1017 days ago
 
Bushi
The candida library site looks good. Once it's finished it will be a great resource.

Does anybody know anything about Iodine?

"Iodine offers a serious and potent replacement for much of the antibiotics that are literally destroying people's lives and can be used safely with children. Parents, who chose not to dose their kids with dangerous vaccines will be glad to know that iodine can be very effective against a host of viral infections that medical officials insist threaten children.

Though it kills 90 percent of bacteria on the skin within 90 seconds, its use as an antibiotic has been ignored. Iodine exhibits activity against bacteria, molds, yeasts, protozoa, and many viruses; indeed, of all antiseptic preparations suitable for direct use on humans and animals and upon tissues, only iodine is capable of killing all classes of pathogens: gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria, mycobacteria, fungi, yeasts, viruses and protozoa. Most bacteria are killed within 15 to 30 seconds of contact.

Iodine is by far the best antibiotic, antiviral and antiseptic of all time - Dr. David Derry"

http://www.candidalibrary.org/cand_lib/article.php?id=128

1024 days ago
 
Viewpoint
Some very interesting comments here, one topic which I'm always learning. With regards to D-mannose I think it is important what type of D-mannose you take. I myself believe the Waterfall D-mannose to be the most beneficial http://www.waterfall-d-mannose.com/

I don't know if you've come across this before - The Candida Library? I find it quite helpful. If you go to their Database section, they also have 'latest articles' which can be of interest. Here's the link to the home page http://www.candidalibrary.org/index2.html

You might find something of help here
1024 days ago
 
Bushi
Hi Nyx,

I tried the FODMAPS diet some time back think I had fructose malabsorption (glucose vs fructose content) until I tested for it in Biolab and it came back negative. The only two tests that have given me some answers has been the Metametrix test which confirmed by Candida and the Hydrogen Breath test which confirmed severe bacterial overgrowth.

I know follow a candida diet (similar to the paleo diet but less restrictive) which has finally eased my symptoms a little for the first time! I remember some time back eating nothing but boiled white rice and boiled chicken for breakfast, lunch and dinner. My plan was to do that for a week until my symptoms subsided and then to start re-introducing foods, like onion, carrots, garlic etc....one at a time to see how my system would react. The problem was that my symptoms didn't get better. I was flummoxed. I was once told by a chinese doctor that rice was medicinal and couldn't cause you problems.

Since I've read up about candida and about how sugar feeds bacteria etc... it has really helped me ease my reaction to foods. I also used to have bad acne which would appear on my lower back. It has all disappeared for the first time ever since following the diet. Basically I follow a high protein low-carb diet. The only carbs I eat is wholegrain brown rice, brown rice pasta (soba noodles), ryvita and wholegrain rice cakes etc..

I am naturally slim and quite sporty so I need to try and maintain my weight which I loose easily if I'm not careful. So, I eat lots and lots of avocados (each one has 200 kcal) I have spoonfuls of Virgin coconut oil and Virgin Olive oil. I always cook with it too. Each teaspoon has appx 120 Kcal. I carry certain nuts around with me. On average if you eat 100 gram of nuts you'll consume 650 kcal. I also push weights and have recently started on hempseed protein after workouts. The only way I maintain weight is by trying to bulk up. I also eat sweet potatos sometimes. Some sites say it's allowed others say it's not. It has a lower sugar content than normal potates so I eat it for variation.

I don't touch any dairy except for natural (sugar free) joghurt. I make milkshakes with Natural probiotic and greek probiotic joghurt (the latter being quite fattening), I mix it with organic coconut milk, some blueberries, strawberries and rice milk. Add a couple of teaspoons of virgin coconut oil for the added calories.

It must be very difficult to manage with a 4 year old and to see them suffer like that and not be able to help. Consider taking saccharomyces boulardii. It's a probiotic yeast that survives stomach acid and colonizes the intestinal tract.

Personally I think probiotics are overated and really don't scratch the surface when it comes to recolonizing the instestinal flora. There are so many different strains in our systems and the ones on the market are limited to just a handful and even then most of them don't supposedly get to where they are supposed to go. I'd imagine the only ones really worth anything are those that need to be kept refrigerated. (i.e VSL3). However, I think for some with mild symptoms it may well help. There's no denying the ratings provided by people for certain brands on places like Amazon or Iherb.com. L-Acidophilus seems to be quite a successful strain.

Put your child on candida diet for a few days and see how you get on. Or you could run the Metametrix test.

Good luck and let us know how you get on with the D-Mannose.

All the best!
1025 days ago
 
Nyx
Nyx,
ps -- maybe this is a crazy notion, but from what I read somewhere else I think that maybe the lining of the intestines and the bladder are made of glycoproteins? And so maybe there is mannose in it, and that that is what the microorganisms actually attach to? I dunno, but I thought that might explain why if you eat a lot of mannose, they will grab on to that instead.
1026 days ago
 
Nyx
Nyx,
Hi, I just found this website as I was doing some follow up research and this precise question. I really don't know if my kid has a yeast issue or not, but we did or tried to do low FODMAPS for a really long time and recently he's gotten worse, so I suspected that maybe the problem is yeast rather than bacterial. Anyhow, I wound up buying some D-mannose just last night and started him on it this morning, because I saw on another site somewhere that someone said that his GI doc had said he thought it might work! In the way of the world, I of course can no longer found where I saw that, and it's not as though it was a study or anything, but I thought I would just share that apparently, you are not the only one who has heard this!

My understanding of how it supposedly works in the case of UTIs, is that for some reason the bacteria actually latch on to the mannose for some reason. When I tried to just read about mannose generally, I gathered that it is used to create some sort of glycoprotein and ... OK, I don't understand anything more about that. But for some reason, once the organisms grab the mannose, they detach from teh walls of the bladder, and just come right out in the urine. It seems that is highly effective for this purpose, so I figure that even if this doesn't cure the diarrhea, at least it will eliminate any under-the-radar urinary tract infections, which cannot hurt!!

As it seems that you have done both the FODMAPs and also been concerned about candida, can you tell me whether you are just avoiding carbohydrates altogether? I am in a pickle because you can't really put a 4 year old on a meat-only diet very easily (and the scary link below suggests that wouldn't be a good idea anyhow!), but it sounds to me as though they are saying if you have bacterial overgrowth you basically need to avoid all complex carbohydrates, because they are food for bacteria, but if you have yeast overgrowth you basically need to avoid all simple carbohydrates, because they are fod for yeast!

I had gotten this magical idea from the FODMAPs thing that if we only ingested glucose, our bodies would get a "first stab" at it, absorb it all, and the organisms wouldn't get any, but now that I've been reading about the candida issue, I see that that isn't true at all, and so now I think that while the low fodmaps diet may have helped with bacterial overgrowth, the months of glucose, white rice, and ripe bananas have possibly made things worse by encouraging the yeast. {sigh}

For some bizarre reason, it seems as if even probiotics make things worse for my son. I found a kind that is refrigerated, without any growth medium, apparently, so I am hoping that it will help. Before they all had sugar alcohols or something in them, that I'm hoping is the reason why the probiotics seemed to give him diarrhea also. Do you think it's possible to overdo probiotics??

Also, thanks very very much for sharing the tip about doing the laxatives to really try to push the yeast out of there. That is a great idea that I had not thought of in exactly that way.

Sorry for the long ramble. As some one famous once said, if I'd had more time, I would have been more concise ... if I ever find anything more on d-mannose and yeast, I'll try to come back here and share it ....
1026 days ago
 
Maff
Maff,
No problem. There is no comparison available between d-mannose and the well known antifungal medications and natural alternatives because it is not routinely used as an antifungal. This was just a suggestion from my doctor after she had spoken to a gastroenterologist whose name I have unfortuntaely forgotten! I'm not sure if the theory of how it works, or even if it works, has been tested.

My doctor did suggest it be used in a single large dose in combination with a laxative of some sort to essentially clear out a lot of Candida/yeast in one go - rather than used in low dosages daily like the other antifungals you mention.

I've never seen or heard a verifiable explanation of how the 'spit test' supposedly works so I don't put any stock in it. I believe the best tests for intestinal Candida/yeast are those that detect their fermentation products in blood or urine (e.g. Biolab Gut Fermentation Profile). Threelac is all hype as I did a review of medical literature on probiotics for my degree dissertation last year and came across no published studies on Threelac (or Fivelac).

I'm exactly the same with the supplements. I have rows on my kitchen counter and just recently threw away two cupboards full of supplements and medications that had accumulated over the years. What else can we do but try things...

Not sure whether to thank you for that link or not...scary! What chance do we have of restoring our gut ecology to health if the food we eat every day is full of bugs like Staphylococcus aureus. Not good.
1027 days ago
 
Bushi
Thanks for the info. I hadn't heard of D-Mannose, so I have ordered the powdered version which should give me 2grams per serving which is a fair amount. Maff, do you know how this compares to antifungals like Diflucan, Nystatin etc?? Or are they supposed to work in tandem?? At the moment I am taking 200mgs of Diflucan and 5 mgs of Nsystatin in an oral suspension daily, but I can't say i've noticed any difference at the moment.

And what are your views on the infamous 'spit test' to determine whether one has candida?? Is there really any truth or logic to that test??? And has anyone had any success with hyped up products like Threelac? Not sure if I should buy some as it's quite expensive. I'm already taking a bunch of natural supplements like caprylic acid, cat's claw, coconut oil, garlic, goldenseal, black walnut and Saccharomyces boulardii. My kitchen looks like a bloody health store!! Anyone walking in would think I was a hypercondriac.

I'll let you know how the D-Mannose goes.

In the meantime check this article out.....what chance do people have!

http://eatocracy.cnn.com/2011/04/15/bacteria-seen-in-nearly-half-of-u-s-meat/

1028 days ago
 

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