Methods of getting HPI into the small intestine

Discussion started by Maff 8 years ago

My symptoms and testing suggest upper gut fermentation by both yeast and bacteria (SIBO). Documentation from the Probiotic Therapy Research Centre, Sydney, Australia, the world's leading medical facility for provision of HPI, suggests healthy human faecal matter is a highly effective broad sprectrum antimicrobial as well as replacing the undesirable microbes with colonies of healthy bugs. If this is the case it could be the ideal treatment for myself and those of you in a similar position.

If we are going to do HPI at home the question then becomes - how do we get the prepared donor faecal matter into the small intestine?

I so far have three possibilities in mind:

1. Self-insert a nasogastric tube and inject the faecal material (liquified with saline solution and a blender) using a large syringe. See the Youtube video and info posted by Redo in the discussion 'Testing before and after fecal transplant'.

2. Fill large empty enteric supplement capsules with the faecal matter and swallow. This seems the simplest method but could be messy and tedious filling enough capsules to do the job.

3. Idkwia mentioned a study in Crohn's patients that simply had the participants drinking faecal matter mixed with milk and blended (or something similar). Does not sound pleasant but would certainly score points for quantity.

Methods 1 and 3 would bring gastric acid into the equation but Redo has mentioned previously that this has not affected positive outcomes in C.diff-infected individuals. It would also be easy to take an antacid or even medication such as a proton pump inhibitor (if working with a doctor) to negate the possible detrimental effects on the donor microbes.

I personally tense up very easily so suspect getting a nasogastric tube inserted would not go smoothly without a general anaesthetic. I am therefore currently thinking of giving option 2 a try.

What do you think guys?

 

 

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Redozipous
Redozipous
I knew. I am thinking about buying one for the probiotic powder I am using. I have to use some 8 spoons a day now (spoons need to get washed, not spoon fulls) to get powder throughout the day.
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
Redo- Please follow my progress in the dedicated discussion I created at:

www.ei-resource.org/community/groups/viewdiscussion/… I explained that the capsule machine didn't work but that this didn't matter as it is easy to make them by hand.
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
Could you please link to the one you bought? Did the capsules come with the machine, or did you buy them separately?
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
Hi Redo,

Yes, I got the capsule machine. I've had a good look at it and readthe instructions. It is all plastic but seems solid and well made ad I suspectit will wok vr well for encapsulating powders. I am ot so sure abou encapsulating faecal matter! I will find out tomorrow when I give it a go. I have made the mistake of buying gelatin capsules which apparently do not do well with moisture so if you decide to buy one then vegetable capsules are a better option I think.

8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
Does the encapsulting machine look alright (if you've received it)? I am thinking about buying one myself.
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
Hi Bushi,

My plan for the HPI capsules is not scientific in the least. I simply plan to start off with a modest amount (say 10) and see how that goes...then work my way up. I am no stranger to taking large numbers of supplement capsules so I don't expect to have problems swallowing anything up to 25-30 if required. Whether that will provide enough HPI mix is anyone's guess which is why I am still considering the 'milkshake' backup as an alternative.

Drinking the HPI mixture shouldn't be any more risky than capsules or the NG tube method and indeed, as I think Redo pointed out, recent studies have actually used this method. Obviously for any HPI it's important to screen donor's stool and blood for viruses and pathogenic bacteria, yeast/fungi and parasites.

Hypochlorhydria is certainly cited as an important factor in the development of SIBO and I think we can extrapolate that to Candida/yeast overgrowth as well given the mechanism involved. I don't think having to take at least 6 capsules of betaine HCl before experiencing a burning sensation in the stomach is entirely unusual when someone has issues in this area. Certainly not ideal though. Have you had your zinc levels checked at any time? Zinc is vital for the production of gastric acid. Good idea to have your faecal fats checked out.

Interestingly I have rampant SIBO and small intestinal yeast overgrowth despite testing normal for gastric acid with a Heidelberg pH test. So hypochlohydria is certainly not the only reason microbes are able to overgrow.

Thanks for the luck!

Thanks for the good wishes
8 years ago
Bushi
Bushi
Hey Maff,

Out of curiosity, how many tablets do you expect to swallow in one sitting?

I still haven't been able to find out if drinking the stuff would be dangerous or not.(Obviously it would be screened first).

I'm just thinking that If i take the same approach as you I think I might not be able to swallow the adequate amount of tablets before my stomach starts to feel uncomfortable with the tablets.

On another note, I recently tested my stomach acid levels and on a scale from 930 - 2050, my results were returned as 910pg/ml. So that's pretty bad which means I have hypochlorhydria. I've been taking HCL Betaine to help with protein digestion and it has helped. I take 2 at breakfast and six at lunch at at my evening meal. And can you believe that when i take six capsules of 650mgs with Pepsin I still don't get a burning sensation in my stomach. I guess if I've had this for a while it may explain how I got SIBO and Candida. The food in my upper gut was constantly fermenting. I'm going to run a test to look at feacal fats to see if I need any pancreatic enzymes.

In the meantime I continue with the Nystatin, Diflucan, Caprylic Acid, Cat's Claw, Black Walnut etc...
I hope I can pick up some vamcomycin or rifaximin while in Turkey in a few weeks.

Good luck Maff, I really hope the FTT brings you some relief.
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
I've just found The Capsule Machine that Redo pointed us to on the UK eBay site and have ordered the size 00 version (the larger size capsules). Comes with 100 capsules but I am pretty sure I'll need more than that so will source some additional empty 00 capsules.

For anyone wanting a capsule filling machine in the UK here is the link: shop.ebay.co.uk/… for dosage, I am personally going to do as Redo suggested and work my way up, adjusting the dose as needed - more if no effect or less if side-effects are encountered.

Thanks for the video Bushi, very useful!
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I am not sure if I am following you. How many one would need?
Hard to tell. I'd go for at least five grams, but that's me. It might very well work with less. And it's not like one would have just one go. If it doesn't work, it's just to increase the dose. One could start low, and work oneself up.

I used a scale when doing my HPIs, and when I did that one gram was much larger than Silverman wrote it was in HPI paper (he wrote about cm3 and grams, how they are compared).
8 years ago
MikeH
MikeH
Redo you say below 5-10 caps for each gram. Anyone any idea how many they would be thinking of taking in one go?
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
Thanks for posting the vid Bushi!

I am guessing it would take five to ten capsules for each gram wanted. So I think it would make it a lot more manageable (if it's doable).

Yeah, they are so cheap it's just to through away. The NG tubes I used costed a whole lot more.
8 years ago
Bushi
Bushi
That's a great piece of kit Redo. Thanks for the link.

Here's a link on youtube showing how the capsule filler works.



Looks">www.youtube.com/…
quite straight forward and could be an easy way to fill the capsules.
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
I have been thinking that encapsulating faecal matter might be a bit of a problem Redo! Practicing before starting the HPIs proper is definitely a wise idea I think. The encapsulating machine on ebay looks like it could come in very handy and definitely worth giving a try at that price - thanks for posting the link
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I would really recommend practicing making the HPI pills to those whom are thinking of that method of administration.

If it works, than that's great. But I am not sure how the somewhat liquid feces would be together with a capsule meant for something dry.

Machines such as there might be of help (I am not sure - haven't studied them).
shop.ebay.com/… attempting this could through away the machine after use.

I am just imagining it would be cumbersome to fill pill after pill daily when having a foggy/porridge brain (such as myself).
8 years ago
True
True
All I know is that I read a study or paper that "concluded" this.

It was a concern of mine because my small intestines bloats (though negative SIBO test) and I wondered if the the new bacteria from a transplant would make it there. When I read that it would I stopped worrying about having to drink the milkshake.

Ive read so much on the subject but havent saved much the in way of resources. If I remember the key words I will research it and post back.

I have a doctors email who performs the transplant..I will email him.
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
Where did you read that True?
8 years ago
True
True
I a bit confused as I have read that in seeding the large intestines the bacteria would eventually make it to the small intestines. Can someone cite references that this is not the case? thanks
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I am not sure, but I got feedback from another person whom I asked to contact him, which said that nothing was commercially available, ot avilable at all.

Hopefully the enteric coated method will work.
8 years ago
Bushi
Bushi
Hey Redo, is this Dr William Martin?
www.gla.ac.uk/media/… was a good blog. Maff, I also noticed that he didn't hold it in very long and began drinking alcohol almost immediately. He would have been better of sticking to a low fermenting diet and overdosing on pre-and-probiotics perhaps.

I still think I'll down a pint of kaka. I think you need 20 or 30 tablets to get a decent amount down and i think that in itself would sit like a brick in my stomach. But like you I'll do as many as ups as I will down the throat treatment.
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
Thanks for posting that Mike. Really great blog - shame the blogger only experienced beneficial effects for one day. Doesn't really fill me with optimism for myself and you guys but I'm not turning back now. I am quite prepared to down a sh*tshake and discover for myself what the effects will be. I still plan to try filling enteric capsules with the stuff first. I guess this guy didn't think of that or might have saved himself a lot of gagging and rubbing toothpaste on his gums

Redo - He had chronic digestive symptoms and an assortment of other problems he came to attribute to gut dysbiosis and food intolerence etc..as far as I can gather from scanning a few of his posts. Both digestive and neurological/cognitive issues seem to have improved markedly for him for 24 hours...but didn't persist.
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
Good find Mike.
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I got too much brain fog to read, what's his illness? Intestinal or neurological?
Did he use a proton pump inhibitor prior to administration?
8 years ago
MikeH
MikeH
Guys, don't know if you are as FT google obsessive as me but have you come across Ryan Koch's blog. He has been going through DIY FT and his most recent post talks about the top down method without an NG tube - or sh*tshake as he calls it. Seems to have had a good effect but he only did it once and results were short term. Don't think he did anything in the way of prep this time (he's done the enema route before).

Anyway i'll let you read the rest of his story. ryan-koch.blogspot.com/
8 years ago
Bushi
Bushi
Redo, I'll look into this. I haven't heard of Dr William Martin, but if he does need guinea pigs to trial out FTT on patients I'd willingly travel to where he is and do it. I'll do some research on him during the week and try and find a contact email or something. Have any of your symptoms subsided yet?
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
Bushi, what do you think about writing Dr. William Martin asking to be allowed to test his method? I guess he'd appreciate it. And if the only other option is the nose peg, than I guess it could be worth it. I have to say I really appreciate that all of us try, do something, instead of just giving up everything, which many MS/CFS/other autoimmune patients have done...
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
Yes, I use a cheap 1 liter blender. Costed about 30$. It didn't go through the coffee filter (or, some did after hours and hours). But it went though the sieve in no time, and I think it's filtered enough, as it also went thought the NG tube after using the sieve.
8 years ago
Bushi
Bushi
Hey Redo, have you tried buying a very cheap food mixer and blending it like that and then letting it run through the filter?,........and then clearly never use it again (or give it to someone you don't like as a gift ;-) )
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I just tried sending the diluted HPI mix through a sieve (15 % stool, 85% saline), and it went right through. Than I sent it through the NG tube (outside the body, just to test the tube), and it went right through. Yes! So now I can make a HPI mix suitable for the NG tube. If it would by any chance clog, I could use a syringe with a large size needle, and use that to filtrate it even "thinner".

I am actually a little worried about using the coffee filter, because it gets "too clear" the stuff which comes through. I am a bit worried the larger biofilms would be stopped by the paper...
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I agree, the small intestines are really the most interesting! I am also suspecting it might be there the problem lies.

I tried two coffee filters. One which only got drops out of it, and the other which I got some 10mL out of after standing the whole night (with 50mL to take from). Perhaps another coffee filter would do the trick. I am not sure. I am using a lot of water now.

I thought I'd stick with a mixture which would be at most 50 mL, so I can fit it all into one syringe.
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
Good to hear you're preparing to get started with the NG method Redo. Since we both feel that the small intestine is key in ME/CFS - this is where things could get interesting in terms of results.

Sounds like it is going to be trickier than the enemas from your experimentation! I had wondered a lot of the use of coffee filters. They are very fine so the mixture would have to be a long way toward the liquid end of the spectrum to get it through I would imagine. But this is how they do it in studies and clinical settings so I guess diluting the stool to that degree doesn't affect the outcome of the treatment.

Good luck with further diluting the mix. Hopefully you'll find a way to get it flowing through the NG tube without a problem soon. I am keen to hear how you feel after a few days using this method and I am sure you are keen to get on with it too! Keep us updated...
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I tried letting the HPI mix stand overnight in a coffee filter with a container underneath, but almost nothing has gone though. Despite that I used twice the amount of saline which was in the NG tube study. Not sure what I am doing wrong.
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I would really recommend contacting Dr. William Martin to those who live somewhat nearby him (see second reply in this thread). I think he'd be glad to hear from someone interested in his method/patent.

Bushi, perhaps you should do it?
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I thought when 200-300 grams where used the enema route, the dosage used in the NG tube study sounded very little. But I guess it may be alright. One could always go again, if one suspects dosage is the reason something didn't work. But, after a tube has been inserted, I feel it's best to go for the upper end. 50 mL is the max dose a syringe can take, so I guess 50mL it is...

In the NG tube study they first took 30 grams, mixed with 70 grams water. 30/70 mix. Then took 25% of that into a syringe, so it's just 7,5 grams. Sounds very little. But, I guess it could work.

I tried to send the mix through a NG tube yesterday, and it was a bit tricky.

First I mixed 32 grams, plus 70 mL water. I tried to draw a 10 mL syringe full, but it was hard, the syringe clogged time and time again.

Than I tried to send the HPI mix through a coffee filter, but nothing came through. Didn't work. I don't know if I have used a too thick coffee filter, or if there were any other issues.

But what I am thinking about doing now, is to take 25 ml of the mix, and add 25 ml water. So it becomes a mix with only 15% stool. That might help get it though the filter. If it goes through the filter, it might go through the NG tube.

I also tried sending the unfiltered HPI mix through the NG tube, and that was impossible. It clogged totally.

@Bushi, your link got broken. I reposted it here:
bit.ly/… you point me to where on the page the doses are mentioned? I am too foggy to read through the whole thing.
8 years ago
Bushi
Bushi
Hi Redo, as Maff says, I don't think it's about quantity, rather it's about quality. However, if you're going to make such a huge effort to do what your doing, then I would suggest getting the upper end of the recommended dosage into you, i,e from 5-300 grams I would be shooting for 200 and upwards.

Maff, I'd still rather hold my nose and drink it than stick a tube down my throat into my stomach. I'd easily do the the tube option in a hospital but at home myself!!??......no way!

Here's a file you've probably both seen in the past. It's a clinical review by Borody and his team dating back to 2004, but it does have some interesting bits to it. Check page 479 it talks about dosages.

www.instytut-mikroekologii.pl/pdf/literatura/mikroflora_jelitowa/… using fecal flora.pdf

8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I might be. But what I am worried about is over thinking about it after I am done... Why I didn't use dose x etc.
I'll write more later (tried to see how well the HPI mix flows through a 2.67 mm NG tube yesterday (not while the tube was inserted, just tested the tube itself))
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
Yes, braver than me too...although we'd probably be considered brave (or less complimentary adjectives!) for thinking of just drinking the stuff I reckon Bushi!

I think you are probably over-thinking the issue of how much stool/HPI mix to use Redo. Right at the end of Borody's home HPI instructions it does say it's quality rather than quantity that is important. I don't have any reason to doubt the validity of that statement so I wouldn't worry to much about it. On the other hand too much would surely be better than too little for us with such complex illnesses as CFS right? I would say use as much as is practical and tolerable - this is the approach I intend to adopt. No doubt best to start off at the lower end of the scale to see how you react. Remember, this is going into your stomach...you might not feel too well with a stomach full of faeces...

I plan to do 10-14 days in total for the enemas and top down route. Enemas every day for sure. Not certain about the top down but I will also aim to do that every day and see how things go. Obviously if it is make me feel unwell or not showing any signs of having any benefit I'll have to adjust things.

There's my two pennies/cents worth. Sorry I can't give you a more specific answer. I don't think there currently is one...you're the pioneer buddy! I'll be joining you soon though
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I'd like to hear some opinions on how much HPI mix would be required going the upwards down way.

Going downwards up, they in some studies use 50 grams, and in others use 2-300 grams.

I know of one upwards down study where they used this protocol:

Got sample less than 6 hours before the transplant procedure.
Used ~30 grams, added 50-70 ml sterile saline.
Filtered using a coffee filter. Refiltered once after that, also using a coffee filter.

Gave the patients omeprazole to get a less acid pH in the stomach.

25 mL of the HPI mix was drawn into a syringe and squirted into the stomach. So that's about 10 grams of stool, in total.

cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/5/… am thinking that this was a treatment for (the much more easily manageble) c.diff. (compared to CFS/MS/Crohn's etc), so it's not sure that the protocal is adaptable (given that HPI is the answer for those conditions).

I know Borody uses the HPI for a couple of weeks on CFS, MS, RA etc patients (compared to one day on c.diff. sufferers).

But, if you were to do it the upwards down method, how many grams would you use, and how many consequtive days would you do it for?
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
Thanks Bushi. Appreciated. I think it'll go easier and easier once I get the hang of it.
8 years ago
Bushi
Bushi
Redo! You are a braver man than I! Good luck!
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I practiced inserting a NG tube today. It went well.

To begin with you feel a sort of a tingle. Then the nose gets narrower, and it's sort of a "stinging sensation", at first bothersome, but then alright I guess, then comes the "uvula area", getting past that is pretty much the crucial step, once that's done, it's pretty much over width. Drink, and push the tube an inch or so for each swallow. I first put it in the left nostril, but changed to the right, and it went better. I also first lubed the tube, tried, failed, and then I lubed the nostril also, and that worked a lot better.

I used xylometazoline nasal spray first.

Disclaimer for new readers; I am not a doc.
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
Good to see you Bushi!

Yes, I'll give the capsules a go to get HPI in from the top but if it's not working out I think I'd rather just drink the stuff than mess about trying to insert a tube up my nose and into my stomach. I can pretty much drink anything (down in one!) but I'm not the most relaxed person when it comes to medical procedures. I guess it's a personal preference and Redo seems to think he can do the NG so good luck to him

Very interesting link about the camel faeces and it ties in with a post Dechen made in the forums last week. She posted a link to an article and one inference from a doctor interviewed really struck me - perhaps it's not the microbes in the HPI that cure C.diff and the like but something else in the faeces. I guess antimicrobial substances produced by faecal bacteria (e.g. subtilisin from Bacillus subtilis) would be along these lines, although I'm sure they meant things that our own body's produce as well e.g. lactoferrin, SIgA etc.

Bushi you uploaded your photos fine. Only problem is the results are too small to read and unfortunately the photo system doesn't have a zoom feature yet. Would seem obvious if I designed the software but there you go. It will probably be added in the future. I can only work with what is available I'm afraid as I am neither healthy nor a programmer or professional web designer!

Sounds like you have the common viscious cycle with the yeast and bile acids. Intestinal yeast overgrowth will put a huge burden on the liver by giving it ethanol, acetaldehyde and all sorts of other toxins to deal with 24/7. The upshot over time is a liver that can't cope and is unable to carry out all of its duties efficiently e.g. bile production. As Dr. Myhill told you, bile is one thing that keeps gut microbes out of the upper gut so then you get more yeast overgrowth, more SIBO, more toxins, an even poorer functioning liver...and less bile.

Hypochlorhydria would also not be a good thing in terms of Candida/yeast and SIBO as your poor digestion would result in partially digested food particles being available for them to thrive on. Definitely worth doing the VEGF to check it out. I had my gastric acid production tested at Biolab using a test called the Gastrogram that used a Heidelberg pH capsule sensor you had to swallow. Unfortunately they had to discontiue that test.

We're in the same boat buddy as I have spent 13 years trying to sort my gut out and am no better off now than I was then...HPI is my big hope!

It's a week since I sent my Metametrix sample off so I'll post results when I get them.
8 years ago
Bushi
Bushi
I tried to upload my metametrix results the photos section but I don't know how successful i've been. I tried to upload them as an image file but it didn't seem to like that so I uploaded them as .gifs but I'm not sure if it liked that either. Your site is full of fantastic information all over but I don't find it the easiest to navigate around unfortunately. It's probably me not being the sharpest tool in the toolbox!

My test results indicate that I am producing adequate amounts of digestive enzymes, however I do have have high normal levels of triglycerides which could point to poor production of bile acids – Dr Myhill suggest these are directly toxic to upper gut fermenters and helps to keep the upper gut sterile.

According to the Dr the most important finding in the results are the high levels of yeast at 100000pg DNA/g specimen. Which are some of the highest she has seen!! (Not reassuring at all!)

The Dr also suggests I may suffer from hypochlorhydria. For those who don't know hypochlorydria refers to a deficiency in hydrochloric acid produced by the stomach, it can lead to malnutrition and leaky gut. I may try betaine hydrochloride to counteract this, however in the meantime I have ordered the
salivary VEGF test just to be sure.

In the meantime I can't stop mentally preparing myself for doing the FTT in September. I really think it's the only thing that can help now if done properly and consistently over a period of days.

Otherwise, I'm flat out of ideas!

8 years ago
Bushi
Bushi
Gents, check this out....just thought you'd find it interesting:

... consumption of fresh, warm camel feces has been recommended by Bedouins as a remedy for bacterial dysentery; its efficacy (probably attributable to the antibiotic subtilisin from Bacillus subtilis) was confirmed by German soldiers in Africa during World War II.

www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2600/…]
8 years ago
Bushi
Bushi
"To be honest, if the faecal matter is going to end up in the stomach I would personally prefer to just blend it with some milk, throw some prebiotic powder in there for good measure...and down it!"----

I see Maff you're coming around to my way of thinking! don't to invest in a good nose peg! ;-)

8 years ago
Maff
Maff
Wel CFS is a "syndrome" after all - a collection of symptoms in other words. There is no diagnostic test so those of us diagnosis, although we end up with similar symptoms, could have arrived at this point from many different directions. I personally feel gut dysbiosis is one of the major directions.

Not sure if you would have got any HPI into the small intestine via enema or not. The ileocaecal valve should prevent things going that way - unless force is used. Or, if you have a dysfunctional ileocaecal valve, which is actually one theory as to why people get SIBO and yeast overgrowth in the small intestine the first place - the microbes are able to migrate from the colon to the small intestine when normally this would not be the case. Anyway, it's a possibility but you will need a top-down method for any decent small intestinal effect I would imagine.

I am thinking of the HPI treatments as a combined abx and probiotic protocol. Certainly the most potent in terms of probiotics, I just hope my pre-HPI rifaximin and nystatin (etc) plus the HPI itself clear enough of the SIBO and yeast to allow healthy microbes to re-colonise.

I have done the Neurotoxic Metabolite Test (NMT) developed by KDM and Protea Biopharma, which although a home test kit, I completed exactly as directed and it came back strong positive - indicating a lot of small intestinal bacterial growth. The test I put more faith in was carried out at Biolab in London and is called the Gut Fermentation Profile. The doctors there concluded from my results I had severe yeast/fungal overgrowth, SIBO and malabsorption as a result. Besides the tests my symptoms are obvious. Significant bubbling, bloating, gas at around 2 hours after a meal accompanied by feelings of intoxication e.g. changes in consciousness, mood, headache, body aches etc. Two hours is about the time you would expect food to reach the lower small intestine and indeed the bubbling I can feel and hear comes from the area of my abdomen where the ileum is roughly located.

Once again, good luck with the NG tube. To be honest, if the faecal matter is going to end up in the stomach I would personally prefer to just blend it with some milk, throw some prebiotic powder in there for good measure...and down it! It may come to that if I get fed up messing around with capsules...
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
Good point about the SIBO Maff! I know of a guy who had his syndrome diagnosis (somewhat similar to CFS) replaced with a SIBO diagnose. Wouldn't surprise me if I could get that too.

I got such a good start up effect the very first day. I am suspecting it was because I was so thorough with the massage, that I managed to squeeze parts of the HPI from the large intestines to the small intestines (when the bowel is empty, it's /easy/ to hear where the HPI is inside you when you push - makes noise). The second time I did the HPI (after a new start up), I only got some 80 grams inside. And the massage wasn't so strong, so most likely less came to the small intestines. And when I begin to eat, I get a downwards stream, making it harder to get to the small intestines from the downwards up route (compared to when it was empty).

If CFS is a disease like crohn's (both large and small intestines), then perhaps some of the symptoms originate from some of the parts. E.g. Borody say they improve very much, but he doesn't say they get cured (when he does it the enema way). If the bacteria are able to translocate or not (to blood) is a different issue, wont go into that here, but I think that the bacteria in the small and large intestines might give different symptoms.

I am thinking of the HPI in just the same way as an abx course. After all, that's much of what it is. A natural abx for the intestines.

Interesting about KDM, Biolab, Myhill and the small intestines (!). And your test results. If you don't mind, could you tell which gut tests you did which pointed towards the small intestines?

I have no qualms about doing it now, but I might when I begin inserting it ;-) I don't know. At least it's not dangerous putting it in, and a lot of parents, or other care takers, do it on their relatives who are home, sick, and need a NG tube. There is a woman over at phoenix rising who has inserted quite a lot of the tubes, and she's not a professional.
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
Well C.diff infection basically has one symptom...chronic diarrhoea so it's easy to understand that if the HPI works and the C.diff infection is eradicated, the diarrhoea will cease and a cure declared.

MS and ME/CFS are far more complex disease in which the gut dysbiosis is only a single factor so an educated guess would be that HPI would result in extremely varied results between individuals both in the time it takes for a response, the size of the reponse and the symptoms that are improved.

My personal opinion is that most if not all gut-related ME/CFS issues originate from the small intestine and the toxins absorbed. The small intestine is after all where nutrients are readily absorbed. So you might have Candida/yeast producing ethanol and acetaldehyde and SIBO with bacteria producing hydrogen sulphide (H2S) and ammonia...all highly toxic. Not least to the brain and central nervous system! I believe the balance of research backs up my opinion. Dr. Kenny de Meirleir's theories and diagnostic test are based on bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine, Biolab's Gut Fermentation Profile looks for fermentation by yeast and bacteria in the small intestine (I believe they published a study involving (patients with "unexplained" chronic illness having high levels of fermentation), Dr. Myhill agrees that upper gut fermentation is the major issue. There are many more bits and pieces I could refer to if I dug around for a while but I'm too tired/brain-foggy right now I'm afraid.

This is why I have focused on methods to get the faecal matter into my small intestine as I know at least in my case from symptoms and testing that the small intestine (specifically ileum) is the problem area. I don't fancy the HG tube though so sticking with the capsules idea or now. You're more relaxed/less squeemish than I am Redo if you have no qualms about doing the NG method yourself. Hope it goes without incident!

8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I will most likely try to learn the NG method early next week. I'll report back on how that went.

I know c.diff. patients respond pretty quickly, in a matter of days. I am not sure how it is with MS or CFS patients. I am guessing that they don't have enough experience to tell for sure.

Anyway, I am wondering about you guys' opinion; do you think some MS/CFS symptoms may originate from the small intestines, and would have to be reached "upwards down"? Different people, different opinions, but I'd like to know what you guys think.
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
"(Redo is using 80 grams)" Redo only used taht one day, cause that's what was possible that day ;-). I think it's best to do it the Borody way, 2-300 grams. And mix with at least 3 times that of water.

I spoke with a GP today about the nasogastric tube, and he said it's just like I said; lube, tube and a syringe. Just remember to measure the lenght of tubing needed beforehand, and ask the pharmacist for the equiptment was the message. So I guess I'll be doing that just to practice. He also said it's pretty induvidual if the person feels it's uncomfortable and has problems getting it down. Some are perfectly fine with it, some not.

It's much easier than doing "-scopies", because they use thicker tubes for that.
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
You're not the only one who has seen the evil side of antibiotics Bushi, I had 7 courses of broad spectrum types in the 12 months before my diagnosis with chronic fatigue syndrome - most doctors would no doubt say it was a coincidence but I think not!

I wouldn't say there are no risks to drinking someone else's faecal matter but it does seem that it has been done without ill-effect. I suppose it's no riskier than other forms of bodily fluid exchange I'd definitely want donor tested as comprehensively as possible however.

Especially in your case since your father had such severe problems with H.pylori and you have been infected yourself, you don't want to re-infect yourself and end up with more problems to deal with. Do you think it's not better to go with my capsule idea for the sake of safety? We're still getting the HPI where we need it...

I am a patient of Dr. Myhill's so am getting the rifaximin from her for the treatment of SIBO. She is of the opinion that HPI won't help those like us with upper gut fermentation problems like SIBO and yeast overgrowth. I took her advice on board but have decided it is worth a shot anyway since I have no other options available to try to tackle the yeast! The 30 grans of faecal matter will be for an enema (Redo is using 80 grams). So, I am still unsure how much to be using from the top down.

Thanks for the info and link on OSCN. I think I have stumbled across it before but will do some more digging and consider taking it along with the rifaximin.

It would be great if you could post your Metametrix results. Once you have them as an image file(s) you can 'Create Album' from the group main page and then upload the images into it. We'll all be able to see them easily then
8 years ago
Bushi
Bushi
Redo, I am sure it was the countless antiobiotics they used on me while i was in hospital that has caused my ever worsening problems. It's reassuring to see the Borody has mentioned IBS as possibly benefiting from FTT.
Maff, it's good to see that a study has already been done with regards to drinking it as a solution rather than using a gastric tube. I'm seriously thinking about just drinking the solution and keeping a nose peg on for an hour until i've washed my mouth out 100 times!! . I just wanted to make sure there was no real dangers with doing it that way.

Maff, my father had the H. Pylori for most of his adult life until the cure was found (it nearly killed him twice). Only a year ago I was told I had it too, but I never suffered with acidity or ulcer-like symptoms. I was told that if I removed it I probably would notice a difference. I did remove it and I didn't notice any difference at all. Supposedly the H. Pylori bug has been with us since the dawn of man and a large percentage of the population do have it but it doesn't cause them any problems. It's also prevelant in poorer nations.

Maff, how are you going to obtain the antibiotics before the treatment? I read the other day that it would be wise to wait four or five days after you have taken them before starting the treatment as it could affect the new bugs you're putting in. I'm travelling around Turkey in August and may try to pick some vancomycin or rifaximin up there if a prescription is not required.

I read Dr Myhill's site last night and she recomends 30 grams of matter (about a teaspoon full) which isn't really much. I guess it's all about quality not quantity possibly.

With regards to the OSCN treatment, it may be worth looking into. There isn't too much published on it yet as it's a new treatment. But esentially it's a very powerful enzyme found naturally in human tears. It was developed in France and a Dr called Richard Stead has obtained the licence to use it in the UK.

I can't find the original site, but someone has copied the details into this curezone thread:
curezone.com/forums/… check out these links:

www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/153516184.html

http://www.antiaging-systems.com/enews/…
will also scan in my Metrametrix Gastro Function Profile on a separate thread so you can see what to expect from your results.

Thanks for the feedback.

8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
Hi Bushi,

And welcome to the boards!

"Symptoms started when I got viral meningitis and glandular fever as a teenager." Fascinating! But did you get abx for these conditions? And the abx (probably) set of the symptoms?

If you read Borody's home protocol, you'll see IBS is in the introduction ('potentially cure IBS').
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
Hi Bushi, welcome and thank you for sharing your story!

It sounds like you have a seriously messed up gut ecology...as we all do or wouldn't be here and considering/doing this treatment. So you're in good company

If all you have described trying in terms of treatment hasn't helped you must be seriously frustrated. I am at the same stage in my thinking as you except my problem has been that I have been unable to tolerate any antifungal treatment (small intestinal Candida/yeast being my big issue). Like you I have found diet mitigates symptoms but does nothing to actually resolve the cause.

I am looking for anbitotics that treat SIBO prior to doing my HPI. They need to be either non-absorbed or very easy on the liver. I am trying to get rifaximin but the OSCN you mentioned is something I have never come across and sounds like it could be ideal. I am guessing it is a prescription medication?

Here's my two pennies/cents worth in answer to your questions:

1. A few of us discussed this in the forums and idkwia said he'd seen a medical study that was having participants simply drink the donor stool and saline solution mixture. So it looks like it can be done but I think you'd have to be more thorough with testing your donor. H.pylori (which causes stomach ulcers) would be one obvious essential. If I don't get good results using capsules I will probably do this.

2. Not sure on this one. The gastroenterologists using HPI often say that it's quality of donor stool rather than quantity that is important. Personally I think good quality AND a decent quantity is the way to go...so I'll be filling as many capsules and swallowing as many as is possible. I think it will be a matter of adjusting things as I/we go along.

3. It's my understanding you do a bowel lavage akin to what you'd do before colonoscopy (etc) before the first HPI only. If you did it before each one you'd just be washing out all the good stuff you put in there the previous day.

4. Quicker you can get back with your donor stool the better. Placing it in an airtight container with a few ice packs is probably a good idea.

Hope this helps Bushi and no need to apologise at all!. Anyone else want to chip in?
8 years ago
Bushi
Bushi
Hi, I have had IBS diarrhea since I was a teenager. Symptoms started when I got viral meningitis and glandular fever as a teenager. I think the antibiotics in hospital messed up my flora. Since then I’ve suffered with. usual, daily, constant diarrhea (to varying degrees from mild to severe), lots of gas and bloating, sometimes dizziness and brain fog, cramps, constant tension around the stomach area, creaking bowls, the feeling of incomplete evacuation, lethargy, mild depression, …etc…the list goes on.
I easily get food poisoning when I travel abroad, have had gastroenteritis a few times and salmonella poisoning once. I have never had blood in my stools which is reassuring. Nevertheless, it’s quite demoralizing, embarrassing and draining after having had it for so many years. I’ve learned to hide it from my friends.

I tested extremely positive for the SIBO test and recently ran the DNA test on my stool through Dr MyHill in which she confirmed i had severe candida overgrowth (to levels she had never seen!). I have tried most conventional medicines throughout the years. Not too long ago I tried Rifaximin but that didn't make a different at all. I also tried something called laceteoperoxidise (referred to as OSCN) recently, which is supposed to remove all bad bacteria in the intestine while not harming the ‘good guys’. It didn't do a thing for me. I am now on 200mgs of Diflucan and Nystatin antifungals along with countless natural suplements suggested on the candida diet (caprylic acid, cat's claw, coconut oil, goldenseal, sachroymides Boulardii etc..). I have found that following a low carb and sugar free diet has slowed down my symptoms a little, but it really isn't 'normal living'. I've got through the last 10 years of my social life by taking loperamide.

Anyway, I think FTT could really help. I also feel this is my last hope of ever beating this.

I've been following people's progress around the world on different blogs and forums and there have been a lot of success stories with Colitis and obviously C-Dificile. However, I haven't read about too many people who have tried it for IBS or Candida related symptoms but according to Borody he has helped IBS sufferers in the past. So I think I will give this a go too after summer. I have a life-long clean living friend who will be my donor and who I will screen. I intend to do both 'up and down' in terms of treatment for 9 days.
A few years ago the idea of doing this would have freaked me out! But now I’m willing to try anything. If it means feeling better and getting on with my life.
So…. I have a few questions for you all if that’s ok:
1)If I need to get the liquid into my small intestine which is where the bulk of my problems lie (I think), could I drink the liquid down without using a gastric nasal tube?? I think I read recently about a girl who did that and she didn’t have any problems. Although I think she wore a nose peg for the smell.

2)If I were to follow the same treatment as you Maff, in terms of using enteric coated capsules, how many do you think you would need to prepare?

3)As I understand it you are supposed to empty your bowel before you start. Are you supposed to do this every evening or morning that you repeat the treatment??

4)How long can the bacteria survive before I have to use it? I’d have to drive to collect the sample from my friend’s house each day.

That’s all for now but I’m sure I’ll have many more questions... Thanks for listening and sorry for the long rant.
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
Well that makes sense. No need to worry about suction devices for your purposes then.

I don't have a cunning plan or anything with the capsules. I'm just going to buy ready-made empty enteric coated capsules (yet to be sourced) and then probably use a syringe/pipette to fill them with prepared donor faecal matter. I'll do as many as possible and then...down the hatch!

It sounds like you'll be getting going with this before I do but I may do a trial run with the EC capsules using my own stool to see how feasible it actually is. I'll let you know how that goes for sure.

Glad you feel so comfortable and confident about the HG tube. Nerves of steel
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
No worries, I found out what they need the sucktion drainage system for. The intruction video is made to show how to insert a NG tube (which is the same way no matter why you insert it), but what they plan to use it for in the vid is sucking the gut dry, probably to do some "-scopy".

If you find a good way to do enteric coating, then please do share with us. I really don't mind inserting a NG tube on myself (I have done a lot more bother- and cumbersome treatments), but EC pills would be great if there's a good way to get it done. I also just thought, that NG tubes are common enough that you don't have to go to the internet to find it (like I first suggested), I guess it's for sale at you local drug store.

Yes, I am doing enemas first, for some 10 days, then it's plan B, NG tube. But if you find a good end easy way to the HPI into enteric coated pills, than that's great!
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
I thought taking an antacid didn't really have any drawbacks as it's a cheap and easy solution to rule out possible damage to the newly introduced microbes from gastric acid. Having said that, from the studies you've posted here it seems that perhaps doesn't have a major effect on outcome anyway.

I would be using enteric coated capsules so they are designed to reach the small intestine before breaking down and releasing their contents. I still need to find a source but will post a link here once I have had a chance to do that for anyone who's interested.

Well done finding those supplies for your nasogastric method. Good news all round as everything is readily available and it's all cheap. You'd definitely need some form of gel/lubricant...but that shouldn't be a problem like you say, just visit the local drug store. I would have thought that is all you need but the reference to a 'suction drainage system' in the video is a bit of a worry. Is it used to drain fluid from the stomach prior to the treatment? I would imagine that fasting for 12 hours would leave the stomach plenty empty...

Does make me a little concerned that you're attempting this method yourself though and one reason why I'm going to try the capsules first. I think if I was going to use a nasogastric or nasojejunal tube I'd have to be in a clinical setting.

So you're planning on the enema route first and then nasogastric is plan B? I am going for 10 days of enemas and starting with capsules to cover the top down route from the start. I guess I'll adjust my plan as things progress. The capsule idea may prove unworkable but I won't know until I try!
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I found something, but I am not sure if it's enough. In the video they say they need a "suction drainage system" (for what?), I thought the syringe was supposed to be used to first suck to see if the tube is inserted far enough, and then also use the syringe to dispense the solution.

I thought I'd buy this; Size 14 Fr www.mountainside-medical.com/products/… also this, www.mountainside-medical.com/products/…-(Case{47}30).html

But, would I need something else? Or is that enough?

I thought I'd buy at least some 20 when I first buy, so I have enough to experiment with. I know you'd need gel to get the tube into the nose, but that can be bought at the local drug store.
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
If anyone finds a good place to buy nasogastric tubes (+ syringe etc) than please post. I would like one. I know they are at sale because many people use them for administering food (at home) when it's not possible to get it done in another manner. I will most likely go enema way first, and if that fails I would like to have the NG tube at handy, instead of having to wait for weeks (or perhaps months) to get the whole works...
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I think it was in a pubmed abstract I found his address to be in Scotland. I can't find it again thought. Anyway, here's his patent: www.wipo.int/patentscope/search/en/…
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
Taking an antacid was a smart suggestion. I think I'll do that if I do it the upwards down way. If you use method two the pills would have to have a pretty robust surface.

The study I pointed to showing c.diff. could be cured with HPI via a NG tube was just one case, but here's another showing it works more consistently:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/… can add a 4th method (although hard to get done); getting it down via a duodenal tube, which would eliminate the stomach acid issues. But you'd have to know someone who does it.

And a 5th method could be contacting Dr William Martin in Scotland. He has recently taken a patent on a procedure of freeze drying the fecal matter and making pills of it (UK Patent PCT/GB2010/051561). You can see him writing about it in the comments field of this (fascinating) article:

www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/EASD/… think he would be happy to discuss this, well, because he did discuss it online himself. And when he recently have taken a patent, and I guess he still has no patients using it, I think he'd appreciate someone contacting him about it. But that said, I have seen many studies with live bacteria work well, but none with freeze dried material. So if it doesn't work, then I'd think about doing it without the freeze dry part, and go for one of the other methods.
8 years ago

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