Why CFS comes from the gut, and how a HPI could help

Discussion started by Redozipous 8 years ago

I really think that all CFS patients have at least one common nominator. And I am starting to believe it's in the gut.

Here's why I think my CFS, which I have had for 7 years, comes from the gut.

For starters I improve really fast when I get on certain antibiotics. Too fast (around 24 hours give or take after administration) that it would seem likely that the antibiotiocs would have had time to penetrate tissue and kill bacteria, and make me better. But the very first thing the abx reach is the gut.

And I also relapse hard and pretty fast when I am off abx. It normally happens in less time than a month. And that's pretty much how it works with many c.diff. patients as well.

I guess the unnormal thing for a CFS patients is not having a unique symptom "noone else has". There is such an enourmous diversity in symptoms, and one of my worst symptoms is the loss of the ability to feel hunger, joy, sadness, etc etc. I don't even get any "endorphine rush" after physical exercise. So, I thought, it's either that there something wrong with the receiving apparatus (the transmittors) or it's something wrong on the receiving side (the receports). So I tried to take some painkillers which gives everyone whom use thom a euphoric wellbeing, and I am still not able to feel. So, I figured the problem is most likely on the receptor site. I know about 5 patients whom share this strange symptom with me.

And, the only place where I have seen the same mechanism is with diabetes type 2, or more correctly: insulin resistance. What happens when someone gets insulin resistance is that the body sends out enough insulin, but it's not able to utilize it. And, it's because of problems on the receptor side.

Here's someone describing the mechanism; " (...) insulin sensitivity is decreased due to endotoxemia ". Endotoxemia is endotoxins (often LPS) getting into the bloodstream from the gut. What happens when they flush the gut, and then do a HPI is that the insulin resistance drops dramatically.

So, that's a clue as to what's going on. And on top of that, this unablity to feel symptom of mine have got so much better at the beginning of certain abx treatments, indicating that it's microbal, and that perhaps the abx only were able to "poke at" the microbes, perhaps because I've used the wrong ones.

I got busy now, I'll write more later. There's much to be said.

 

 

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Redozipous
Redozipous
I became aware of what it was a couple of years ago, as a friend who is a scientist has shiftet his main focus towards biofilms (macro level, not micro). So he's sent me a few papers. I find it fascinating, although I am no expert.
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
Just read the article from your second link...very interesting and well written! I love the graph showing typical microbial inhabitants of the average adult gut. What stands out is that you won't find any of those species in probiotic supplements...enhancing the case for faecal bacteriotherapy/HPI. The section about the need to weaken the biofilms established by the undesirable microbes to enhance the chances of success with HPI is something I have not come across before and it's brilliant that the author lists potential things that can be done to achieve this. I will be going shopping for cellulase and other enzyme supplements prior to my HPIs I think!

The Wikipedia page on biofilms is here if you're unsurw what they are - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…]
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
Haven't read this yet, but will when my brain fog get's a little lighter:
perfecthealthdiet.com/
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
This was a great find Maff! (saw it here bit.ly/…)
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/… write more on the OP later, just to foggy now.
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
The "foggy brains" part in the the Borody quote you posted reminded me about it. Thought you'd be interested if you hadn't already seen it. Glad you were Futher evidence of the gut-brain axis being important in CFS!
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
Haven't seen that before. Well written Maff.
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
I had read that article or a very similar quote from Borody online somewhere a while back but thanks for posting for those who hadn't Redo

I don't know if you've seen this research before that found that probiotic supplements improved the emotional symptoms of CFS patients? I wrote a news article on it back in 2009 (full reference at foot article).

www.ei-resource.org/news/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-news/probiotics-help-emotional-symptoms-of-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I am guessing most of us have read the article in the January edition of NewScientist, but for those who haven't read it, I'll post the quotes about CFS and fecal transplant:

"Borody uses faecal transplants to cure people infected by the superbug Clostridium difficile, and to alleviate chronic constipation. Over the past decade, Borody has noticed that some of his patients also see improvements in symptoms of their other diseases, including Parkinson's, multiple sclerosis (MS), chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) and rheumatoid arthritis. "Some CFS patients, given a faecal transplant, will regain their energy quite dramatically, and their foggy brains will get better," says Borody."

eng.vechnayamolodost.ru/news/news/… post more later.
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
Thanks. I'll write more on the OP later. I definitely think the abx can do such things. I know of another person, sharing my symptoms, who got them after a cirpo/metronidazole cure (he did two courses, wasn't sure of which it was - given that it was that).
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
Sorry to hear you're feeling so bad at the moment. Thanks for making the effort to post again and I hope you bounce back (relatively speaking!) sooner rather than later. I'll look forward to reading the rest of your OP.

Seven courses of antibiotics in a year and then CFS is more than a coincidence in my mind...given that 70% of immune tissue is located in the gut in the form of GALT/MALT and both good and bad gut microbes interact with this constantly. The antibiotics I was given were mainly penicillin-derivatives but there might have been a tetracycline like doxycycline thrown in there. All broadspectrum and unfriendly to gut microflora anyway!

Take care of yourself and hope to talk more soon.
8 years ago
Redozipous
Redozipous
I'll post the rest of this later. I am just feeling awful now. I think the seven courses and CFS might be related. Can you check which abx is was? It wasn't by any chance metronidazole, ciprofloxaxin or doxycycline?
8 years ago
Maff
Maff
Great post! I think the fact you improve quickly on antibiotics is a strong signal that something going on in the gut is the source of many of your symptoms. As you note your relapse pattern follows a similar timeframe to C.diff patients as well. A month is plenty of time for undesirable microbes to gain a foothold once again.

Not sure about your thinking on the signaling molecules and receptors. I'd say both are affected in CFS and the wrong gut microbes can play a huge part since they consume the nutrients needed by our own bodies to produce molecules such as neurotransmitters and simulataneously produce toxins such as alcohols, aldehydes, ammonia and hydrogen sulphide (H2S)...all of which can either activate or block receptors and cause havoc (and a whole host of weird symptoms). Double whammy!

In my own case I have struggled greatly with this chicken or egg sceanrio. Did I get CFS which weakened my immune system and allowed gut dysbiosis to develop, or did I already have gut dysbiosis and this ultimately led to immune dysfunction, chronic viral infections....and what we call CFS. For a long time I thought the latter explanation was the correct one since there was a clear viral onset to my CFS. However, I recently obtained my complete medical records and it turns out I was prescribed an astonishing SEVEN courses of broad spectrum abx for non-serious childhood infections in the 12 months leading up to my developing CFS. That would have caused severe alterations in my gut ecology. Additionally, my mother has always had gut symptoms and was only able to breastfeed me for 2 weeks...so I likely started life with less than optimal gut ecology. It was only a matter of time - and too many abx - before CFS or something else developed.

Would love to hear more of your thoughts Redo and let's hope HPI is the answer to giving us healthy gut ecology and much improved health!
8 years ago

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