Supporting Liver Health & Detoxification Pathways Supporting Liver Health & Detoxification Pathways

Stimulating Phase 1 Liver Detox

Discussion started by Tracy Mac 5 years ago

I received my liver detox profile results back today and everything (phase 1 & 2) is underactive except sulphation, probably because its recently been treated via pyroluria protocol. The low phase 1 explains why the only thing that keeps me getting out of bed in the morning is truckloads of Vitamin B - particularly inositol. The low phase 2 explains why I am so dependent on S-ame.

 

 

Anyway I have a question for Maff or anyone else knowledgable re supplements to stimulate phase 1 as there are some difference between your blog on suitable supplements and those recommended on the pathology report. You can see a sample report here (click the second link).

 

As you can see, Healthscope Pathology recommend curcumin and green tea to stimulate phase 1, not inhibit it. So I'm a bit confused. I'm also concerned that both they and Maff have mentioned that silymarin inhibits phase 1 as I have been taking lots of this as it is supposed to protect liver cells from damage. I guess this means I should stop it? I'm taking the following supplements for liver & leaky gut. It is very early days yet as I've only recently been able to tolerate most supplements so I'm thinking its just going to take time. but I definitely don't want to be taking anything that inhibits phase 1 as it seems to be a bigger problem than phase 2.

 

 

Zinc, Magnesium citrate, Iodine,Selenium,Molybdenum , Evening primrose oil, Super Oxide Dismutase, S-ame,TMG, NAC, R-lipoic acid,L-methionine, Amino acids, B1 / Benfotiamine, Vitamins B1, B2,B5, B6, C, D, E &K , Inositol Hexaniacinate, Biotin, B12 / Methylcobalamin, Silymarin, Artichoke leaf extract, Curcumin, Indole 3 Carbinol, Calcium D-Glucarate, Vitamin D, Ox bile, Ubiquinol,, L-glutamine,NAG,Gamma Oryzanol,Cellulose powder,Slippery elm,Aloe Vera, Iberogast

 

 

 

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Maff
Maff
I can empathise with that Tracy, knowing more than our doctors is a problem those like ourselves frequently find ourselves having to deal with! As you have found with your naturopath however, it is always good to have someone who can atg least be a sounding board and offer objective opinion on treatments we might be trying or thinking of trying. This is of course particularly important when it comes to safety and nutrient and herb interactions.

Speaking as someone with a lot of experience of being ill who has also trained as a nutritional therapist I would say periodically stripping back to the bare minimum supplements is very sensible. It allows the body to find its own equilibrium and us to assess our current baseline health.

Sorry, didn't connect the pyroluria and phosphatidylcholine - it just came to me as what seemed like a good alternative to silymarin. Unfortunately these contraindications are all too common for us also. I badly need methyl donors - particularly 5-MTHF (methylated folate) - according to SNP and other test results but my gut has other ideas, becoming irritated and inflammed when I take any.

I think if I was seeing a definite benefit from something I was doing I would stick with that and not attempt to integrate other things that may act against it i.e. I would stick to the pyroluria protocol and leave the phosphatidylcholine, particularly as it hasn't helped you in the past. The pyroluria protocol and stimulating both detox pathways would be the way I would go (with nutrients and herbs with actions I was confident of obviously).

5 years ago
Tracy Mac
Tracy Mac
Thanks for your response Maff. In terms of getting advice, it seems that I know more about this than everyone I see which is why I am so grateful for your input. I have settled for a naturopath who is a great sounding board and at least doesn't pretend she knows when she doesn't. I have found that reading widely to obain consensus of opinion is the most prudent approach. But yes I am worried about everything I'm taking even though I feel so much better on it. I think all I can do is an occassional 'strip back' where I stop taking everything (except the Bs which I can't get out of bed without!)

The reason I'm not taking phosphatidylcholine is that choline (and folic acid) are counter-indicated for pyroluria and I have benefited enormously from the pyroluria protocol which aids the sulphation pathway. However I have wondered about this as the detox profile indicates (and I feel) my liver is not just suffering from the pyroluria but is sick overall. The glutathionisation was low but responds well to the NAC I've been taking which kicks in within 5 hours of taking it. I wake myself up to take the NAC and Bs at 3am so that I can get to work at 8am! Re sulphur tolerance I respond badly to MSM which stimulates sulphation but inhibits Phase 1.

What do you think about the phospatidylcholine? I have tried it in the past and it didn't seem to make me better or worse. But the pyroluria treatment has been so great I don't want to mess with it.
5 years ago
Maff
Maff
Just thought of something else!

I see you are not currently taking phosphatidylcholine. This would be a great alternative to silymarin as it has been proven to protect liver cells and increase intracellular glutathione levels in countless studies in patients with active liver disease (e.g. hepatitis, cirrhosis). It is particularly effective when used in combination with SAMe, I believe.
5 years ago
Maff
Maff
Hi Tracy,

How does your glutathione conjugation look? This is the Phase 2 pathway that tends to get hit hardest and is produced via an offshoot of the transsulfuration pathway which ultimately creates sulphate. It may be that you have factors causing low glutathione production which leaves more intermediates being shunted into sulphate production instead. Any problems with sulphites? This would shed more light on this.

The blog I wrote on supplements for Phase 1 & 2 detoxification was based on a lecture given by Belgian medical doctor George Mouton during my university studies a few years back. He is one of the most knowledgeable doctors in this area (as well as gut dysbiosis) that I have come across. Of course science moves on and what was thought to be accurate in 2009 may have changed somewhat. Also different sources will always come to slightly different conclusions. If it were me I would look for the supplements consistently reported to enhance Phase 1 and avoid those listed as inhibiting it, by any reputable source.

Having said that if I were in your situation I may make an exception for silymarin due to its well known hepatoprotective and glutathione stimulating/preserving properties. I suspect taking all of the supplements you have listed which stimulate Phase 1 would more than counteract any inhibition from the silymarin.

Are you working with a doctor on your supplement program Tracy? I'm just thinking with so many supplements that interactions are going to be very complex and you might end up spending a lot of money on things with opposing effects...as the silymarin issue highlights. It is hard enough to get a handle on this stuff with a fully functional brain so those of us with toxic guts and toxic brains need all the help we can get.

Good luck, I hope you see improvements soon!

5 years ago