Home Fecal Transplants
Picking the best donor for fecal transplant
Discussion started by georgie711 12 years ago
Hi Im George from Sacramento CA. im a yeast overgrowth in the intestine sufferer brought on by antibiotics, diagnosed with CFS, IBS, FM, I always had a feeling that taking probiotics was too simple to heal bad cases of candida but reading more and more new articles like these
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/science/13micro.html?pagewanted=1
http://www.cdd.com.au/pdf/publications/paper16.pdf
http://www.cdd.com.au/pdf/publications/paper17.pdf
http://www.cdd.com.au/pdf/publications/paper32.pdf
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dc4nwm3v_216gznsqmg8
does give me reason to wonder if a fecal transplant (FT) or Human Probiotic Infusion (HPI) will help my situation, I think it can, from other studies store bought probitics may not have the ability to adhere to the gut linning and also theres probably only 150 different strains being made as compared to 10,000 plus in the human gut, but the most facinating research is on the immume triggering possabilties of human probiotics researchers are getting clues of, this makes me want to try some kind of HPI whether doctor assisted or not , thats were picking a donor becomes importaint, So im have a short list of criteria, someone close to me geographicaly and emotionally, one of those "never sick a day in my life" people, possibly related, preferablly middle aged (bigger collection of bacteria built up) and willing to go the distance with me, than I will have them take a CDSA x2 with parasites, from Genovia labs, also a blood scan for all the blood offenders. thats about 500 bucks so I hope he/she passes, than probably do the enteric cap method with enema for 10 or 20 sessions or so and evaluate, unless I find a GI doc willing to help here an california but thats a long shot as law rules most of the health care here, first law than money than health or law health than money in more ethical doctors. have some more to add but too tired so will post later.
Regards
George
You need to be a member of this group before you can participate in this discussion.
Redozipous
"Not only is this likely more sensitive and thus accurate but it also means anaerobic microbes like bacteroides can be detected. Believe it or not these make up 90%+ of the entire gut microflora so most tests are only testing 10% tops!"
I remember you writing about the importance of getting the anaerobic bacteria in there. But can't find where. Anyways, do you have any sources for how long they can survive in air? It has gone several hours from preparation of HPI mix, until HPI via NG tube with me...
I remember you writing about the importance of getting the anaerobic bacteria in there. But can't find where. Anyways, do you have any sources for how long they can survive in air? It has gone several hours from preparation of HPI mix, until HPI via NG tube with me...
12 years ago
Maff
Georgie, the prices for the Metametrix stool analyses are comparable to those of Genova and Metametrix is used by the same docs who use Genova generally. Although I suppose a lot will have one lab they stick with to simplify things. Maybe ask your doctor about it.
Think you confused Redo with the American there. Fleets soda is just a laxative used for bowel washout as I understand it? Any other laxative would do the same thing.
Think you confused Redo with the American there. Fleets soda is just a laxative used for bowel washout as I understand it? Any other laxative would do the same thing.
12 years ago
georgie711
Redo , what I meant by the donor taking a fleets soda is its a drink that someone takes that makes them have a loose stool that means it goes through there colon quicker, its in the colon that the feces gets bile poured into it and from what I understand the bile starts the decomposing effect and there for may kill some of the precious bacteria
12 years ago
georgie711
Thanks Redo, the link below worked for me today as Matt said, also Matt thanks for the heads up on the Metametrix lab,what did you pay for the meta labs , Ill check it out , iv used Genovia before for my stools but if theres a better one Ill definatly do that. Also to people out in northern california-oregon area a blogger writes theres a doc doing HPI near Medford
Paul Schleinitz, MD
Gastroenterology Consultants
Dr Schleinitz has done 11 fecal transplants. The hospitals where he has privilages have protocals and procedures in place for fecal transplants
posted by Rob on scienceblogs
Thanks
Paul Schleinitz, MD
Gastroenterology Consultants
Dr Schleinitz has done 11 fecal transplants. The hospitals where he has privilages have protocals and procedures in place for fecal transplants
posted by Rob on scienceblogs
Thanks
12 years ago
Maff
Hi George and welcome to the group. Like Redo said, we're all in a similar position here and I think we're already helping each other out well with our various issues!
I don't have any studies to hand right now (so much else to do running this site right now, sorry) but on the issue of being able to meaningfully alter the composition of adult gut microflora I think researchers and physicians who have said it is difficult have been talking from the perpective of trying to alter it with interventions such as dietary changes and probiotic and prebiotic supplements. From the studies I have read I think half say it is possible while the other say not...with those methods I mentioned. Now with HPI we have an infinitely greater chance of making a lasting impact due to much greater quantity AND quality of microbes being introduced. Also if you take anbitotics/antifungals/antiparasitics and do bowel washout before starting HPI then you are starting from as blank a slate as is possible so whatever you intriduce with the HPI procedures is likely to establish itself imho.
How much bacteria is live in stool? Plenty given the results with all the C.diff patients! Also, if if were a big issue the vast majority of stool testing would not work because it relies on culturing microbes...which means there have to be plenty that are alive to start the culture!
As Redo mentioned, the C.diff studies have shown it doesn't need to be a relative you use as a donor for treatment to be effective and Prof. Borody routinely uses non-relatives. A lot of research shows that geographic location and diet/lifestyle influences microflora composition however, so just something to keep in mind.
Agree with you on the capsules in terms of filling them with the raw faecal matter George. Makes a lot of sense. I too plan to do the capsules and enemas simultaneously.
George, just a quick point on your testing. Had you considered the Metametrix GI Effects Profile? I am using this one as it is the only one to use PCR DNA detection of microbes rather than the culture method. Not only is this likely more sensitive and thus accurate but it also means anaerobic microbes like bacteroides can be detected. Believe it or not these make up 90%+ of the entire gut microflora so most tests are only testing 10% tops!
Redo - Your link worked for me and I thought it was interesting at the end as it hinted that it might not just be the microbes in the donor stool that are producing therapeutic benefit. Obviously stool contains all sorts of other things such as immune chemicals e.g. lactoferrin. Interesting.
I don't have any studies to hand right now (so much else to do running this site right now, sorry) but on the issue of being able to meaningfully alter the composition of adult gut microflora I think researchers and physicians who have said it is difficult have been talking from the perpective of trying to alter it with interventions such as dietary changes and probiotic and prebiotic supplements. From the studies I have read I think half say it is possible while the other say not...with those methods I mentioned. Now with HPI we have an infinitely greater chance of making a lasting impact due to much greater quantity AND quality of microbes being introduced. Also if you take anbitotics/antifungals/antiparasitics and do bowel washout before starting HPI then you are starting from as blank a slate as is possible so whatever you intriduce with the HPI procedures is likely to establish itself imho.
How much bacteria is live in stool? Plenty given the results with all the C.diff patients! Also, if if were a big issue the vast majority of stool testing would not work because it relies on culturing microbes...which means there have to be plenty that are alive to start the culture!
As Redo mentioned, the C.diff studies have shown it doesn't need to be a relative you use as a donor for treatment to be effective and Prof. Borody routinely uses non-relatives. A lot of research shows that geographic location and diet/lifestyle influences microflora composition however, so just something to keep in mind.
Agree with you on the capsules in terms of filling them with the raw faecal matter George. Makes a lot of sense. I too plan to do the capsules and enemas simultaneously.
George, just a quick point on your testing. Had you considered the Metametrix GI Effects Profile? I am using this one as it is the only one to use PCR DNA detection of microbes rather than the culture method. Not only is this likely more sensitive and thus accurate but it also means anaerobic microbes like bacteroides can be detected. Believe it or not these make up 90%+ of the entire gut microflora so most tests are only testing 10% tops!
Redo - Your link worked for me and I thought it was interesting at the end as it hinted that it might not just be the microbes in the donor stool that are producing therapeutic benefit. Obviously stool contains all sorts of other things such as immune chemicals e.g. lactoferrin. Interesting.
12 years ago
Redozipous
It was that sentence. And I've also seen that other places (I can't find them now, but I have), that it's hard to change long term, and I am guessing relatives have higher chance of a match. But that said, it's not that important. In Australia they let you choose between your own donor, or three which they have...
I agree it's best to not thin out anything which will go in capsules.
Seventy percent being dead bacteria sounds like much. I'd rather say 30% is dead bacteria. But I haven't read any sources for any of this.
I am not quite sure what you mean by this:
"also I wonder if it would help to drink a fleets phospho soda so the donor has a loose stool one time to get it past the bile quickly?"
If you get someone to take a laxative, and then the stool will get past your bile more quickly?
I agree it's best to not thin out anything which will go in capsules.
Seventy percent being dead bacteria sounds like much. I'd rather say 30% is dead bacteria. But I haven't read any sources for any of this.
I am not quite sure what you mean by this:
"also I wonder if it would help to drink a fleets phospho soda so the donor has a loose stool one time to get it past the bile quickly?"
If you get someone to take a laxative, and then the stool will get past your bile more quickly?
12 years ago
georgie711
Hi Redo, the link didnt go through about changing the gut flora over the long term, did it mention using a relitive has a better results, also your right it seems like Khoruts just uses a one time treatment for his Cdiff patients, as far as doing both an enema and swallowing some capsules I might as well do both at the same time its only going to take a few mins to cap up 10 caps and get them down the enema will take more time of coarse, Ill blend it with saline and strain it real quick and drain it in the unknown part will be how much and can I hold it in for hours, as far as the caps go one of my probiotis I take has enteric coated caps Ill just break them open and fill them straight reather than thinning it out with saline why not get more concentrated and fill them straight, I think pretty much the saline ting is just to make it liquid enough for an enema, any thoughts on the matter anyone? another thing I was pondering is how much of fecal matter is still alive when it goes through the bile process, I v heard that feces if 70 % dead bacteria, but that was by brenda watson shes just a nutritionist and tha might be after it sits some time, she might have been saying that for practical matters, the fecal transplant doctors all say its full of live bacteria, lets hope so, also I wonder if it would help to drink a fleets phospho soda so the donor has a loose stool one time to get it past the bile quickly? all questions Id like to ask the doc in austraila that pioneers this therapy.
regards
George
regards
George
12 years ago
Redozipous
Do you get the impression that Alexander Khoruts does the treatment only one time per patient? I got that impression, but I might be wrong...
12 years ago
Redozipous
Hi George, and welcome to the group! We're all pretty much in the same boat here.
Thanks for the links. I hadn't read all of those.
I might be way off, but here's my subjective thoughts.
Reading about gut flora I see often that it is described as something which is somewhat specific to different persons ("The complex microflora ofthe adult is difficult to change in the long term." bit.ly/… ). So I am guessing you'll have a bigger chance of making the new "gut flora" stay, and establish itself, if you're choosing a close relative.
There are two aspects of this. One is the antibiotic effects the HPI has immediately, and the other is making the new flora become your more or less permanent flora.
For the first, it wouldn't matter, but for the second, I'd go for a close relative.
But, that said, it cures c. diff. even if it's done with the aid of a non-blood relative.
And, reading this: www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/EASD/… suggests that gut flora may be the cause of insulin resistance (the major symptom of type 2 diabetes), so I wound't choose a diabetic (although the gut-diabetes connection is avant-garde science, and not established).
".. do the enteric cap method with enema " Are you planning to do both at the same time?
Thanks for the links. I hadn't read all of those.
I might be way off, but here's my subjective thoughts.
Reading about gut flora I see often that it is described as something which is somewhat specific to different persons ("The complex microflora ofthe adult is difficult to change in the long term." bit.ly/… ). So I am guessing you'll have a bigger chance of making the new "gut flora" stay, and establish itself, if you're choosing a close relative.
There are two aspects of this. One is the antibiotic effects the HPI has immediately, and the other is making the new flora become your more or less permanent flora.
For the first, it wouldn't matter, but for the second, I'd go for a close relative.
But, that said, it cures c. diff. even if it's done with the aid of a non-blood relative.
And, reading this: www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/EASD/… suggests that gut flora may be the cause of insulin resistance (the major symptom of type 2 diabetes), so I wound't choose a diabetic (although the gut-diabetes connection is avant-garde science, and not established).
".. do the enteric cap method with enema " Are you planning to do both at the same time?
12 years ago
