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Psychological Symptoms of Dysbiosis related CFS
Discussion started by Tracy Mac 12 years ago
I've started a new thread to give the psychological symptoms of dysbiosis related CFS the attention they deserve.
Maff quotes Winston Churchill at the end of his posts “If you are going through hell, keep going”. The psychological symptoms are the worst as they destroy your motivation to keep on going. The single most valuable thing I’ve done is get the psychological symptoms under control (not great but under control) so that I can keep moving through hell. But you need something to keep going for and without your feelings you can’t enjoy what makes you human.
My experience is that the anxiety, depression and loss of feeling that goes with this condition arises from the serotonin/histamine imbalance caused by amine producing bacteria in the gut and I have written about my theory of how this happens.
What experiences have other people had with the mental effects of this condition?
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Maff
Yes, that's exactly how I'd put it Tracy. I was healed in a way I didn't know I needed healing...without being physically "cured". I am hugely grateful for that experience as it has shaped my journey ever since and led me to things such as meditation which has been hugely beneficial.
For noetic science see noetic.org
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For noetic science see noetic.org
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12 years ago
Tracy Mac
No you weren't babbling. I am interested. It's interesting you say you weren't healed after seeing the spiritual healer. You may have been healed rather than cured, if you know what I mean? You may have been given the strength to go on and get to where you are today? I will look up noetic science.
12 years ago
Maff
You're in danger of getting me started on a lengthy essay here Tracy! I may somewhat of a scientist having been hugely interested in science throughout my childhood and education and holding a bachelor of science degree...but suffering from ME/CFS and environmental illness has a way of opening the mind and a truly curious mind will seek answers through any means.
I became ill aged 11 and being of scientific mind and having had a non-religious upbringing when doctors told me that ME/CFS was untreatable I simply took that as fact and proceeded to ignore the genuine fact that I was ill...pushing my body harder and harder to keep up with what I expected from it and from life. I kept this up through my teens, it worked at first but ultimately resulted in me being bedridden. It appears there is only so much the body can take!
Subsequently, I became desperate and started to listen to my mother who was more open to alternative medical options. I saw a well-known spiritual healer in the area and can only say it was the beginning of a spiritual awakening for me. I was sat in the middle of a large room on a simple wooden chair while the aged healer sat behind his large desk in the corner of the room. He asked me a few questions about my symptoms, told me ME/CFS didn't exist (which annoyed me greatly!) and then we both sat in silence for 20 minutes. I quickly began to experience an upwelling of positive emotion, energy and an amazing sense of well-being. It was like I had been given a potent recreational drug yet the healer hadn't moved from behind his desk or spoken a word. I also experienced what is often referred to as a feeling of "oneness" with my environment and a higher power. Suffice it to say my experience with this healer didn't cure me, the positive results lasted only days. It did open my mind to a greater reality however. I obviously have no proof but I took my experience to suggest it is possible to transfer some kind of so far unidentified "vital energy" or "life force" from one human being to another, without even the need for physical contact. I did much reading on parapsychology, metaphysics and the like after this and became further convinced. I am now deeply interested in noetic science which seeks to tie intuitive knowledge with scientific knowledge.
I think a lot of information on spirituality is conflicting Tracy. My feeling is that we need to develop our own individual spirituality. I certainly agree that anything that suggests we are to blame for our illness or powerless to do anything about it or live a full life in spite of it is completel counter-productive. To me spirituality is about increasing our awareness of our own divinity and power to steer our own ship so to speak.
Told you I would go on a bit...I should probably create a group devoted to discussion of spirituality and spiritual healing! Hope my babbling has been of some help.
I became ill aged 11 and being of scientific mind and having had a non-religious upbringing when doctors told me that ME/CFS was untreatable I simply took that as fact and proceeded to ignore the genuine fact that I was ill...pushing my body harder and harder to keep up with what I expected from it and from life. I kept this up through my teens, it worked at first but ultimately resulted in me being bedridden. It appears there is only so much the body can take!
Subsequently, I became desperate and started to listen to my mother who was more open to alternative medical options. I saw a well-known spiritual healer in the area and can only say it was the beginning of a spiritual awakening for me. I was sat in the middle of a large room on a simple wooden chair while the aged healer sat behind his large desk in the corner of the room. He asked me a few questions about my symptoms, told me ME/CFS didn't exist (which annoyed me greatly!) and then we both sat in silence for 20 minutes. I quickly began to experience an upwelling of positive emotion, energy and an amazing sense of well-being. It was like I had been given a potent recreational drug yet the healer hadn't moved from behind his desk or spoken a word. I also experienced what is often referred to as a feeling of "oneness" with my environment and a higher power. Suffice it to say my experience with this healer didn't cure me, the positive results lasted only days. It did open my mind to a greater reality however. I obviously have no proof but I took my experience to suggest it is possible to transfer some kind of so far unidentified "vital energy" or "life force" from one human being to another, without even the need for physical contact. I did much reading on parapsychology, metaphysics and the like after this and became further convinced. I am now deeply interested in noetic science which seeks to tie intuitive knowledge with scientific knowledge.
I think a lot of information on spirituality is conflicting Tracy. My feeling is that we need to develop our own individual spirituality. I certainly agree that anything that suggests we are to blame for our illness or powerless to do anything about it or live a full life in spite of it is completel counter-productive. To me spirituality is about increasing our awareness of our own divinity and power to steer our own ship so to speak.
Told you I would go on a bit...I should probably create a group devoted to discussion of spirituality and spiritual healing! Hope my babbling has been of some help.
12 years ago
Tracy Mac
Maff I'm interested in your views of spiritual healing, being a scientist? The woman who wrote this article is no idiot: www.jptwellnesscircle.com/launch/… I resist about this spiritual stuff is it seems to blame the victim or designate them powerless. I'm all for personal responsibility but it is an awful thing to have to feel your illness is all your fault because you have negative thought practices or alternately that you have no control because its part of a divine plan.
12 years ago
Maff
Sorry you're having a bad day Tracy. I am too...the dark clouds and rain here in the UK are not helping my mood or energy levels at all!!
Thanks for posting the link to the movie. Some great images and inspiring words. Gave me a needed boost
Thanks for posting the link to the movie. Some great images and inspiring words. Gave me a needed boost
12 years ago
Tracy Mac
I'm having a glum day today but this arrived in my inbox and cheered me up. Encouragement to all those who are on a healing journey
www.healingjourneymovie.com/
www.healingjourneymovie.com/
12 years ago
Redozipous
I got dyslexia as part of my CFS symptom package, but it went away with one of the antibiotic courses. Problems finding words, problem with mixing the letters without purpose, and lots of other things.
12 years ago
Tracy Mac
Does anyone have a kind of grammatical dislexia happening? I have this annoying habit of typing the opposite word to what I mean. I write "up" when I mean "down" and 'left' when I mean 'right'. What's really embarrassing is that I can spell well but still write the opposite spelling to that which I mean - like "wear" instead of "where" or 'there instead or 'their'. Often I just write a word that SOUNDS like the word I want to write. Very frustrating.
12 years ago
True
I was actually deficient in copper. The most accurate test for copper is the ceruloplasmin test.
After I started taking copper I went from sleeping two hours per night to 4-6. Pure miracle for me-heaven!
From what I have read blood tests are often incorrect for minerals. For instance I had an iron deficiency that was not detected by blood iron levels (they were normal) but my ferritin level was almost zero. Increasing my iron capsules raised my ferritin levels and made a huge difference in my wound healing and hair fall out levels. My nails are also less grooved.
I guess what I am getting at is test the markers for these minerals and not the actual blood levels.
After I started taking copper I went from sleeping two hours per night to 4-6. Pure miracle for me-heaven!
From what I have read blood tests are often incorrect for minerals. For instance I had an iron deficiency that was not detected by blood iron levels (they were normal) but my ferritin level was almost zero. Increasing my iron capsules raised my ferritin levels and made a huge difference in my wound healing and hair fall out levels. My nails are also less grooved.
I guess what I am getting at is test the markers for these minerals and not the actual blood levels.
12 years ago
Tracy Mac
I've suspected copper toxicity is involved but hair tests came back fine except for too much aluminium. Having read this article True, I have both the psychological and physical symptoms listed including low zinc and a history of Graves disease. I've been meaning to go and get a blood test done and will definately do it now.
12 years ago
True
A few years ago I began to experiment with mineral balancing using the clues and info from this website- acucell.com and various books i.e Nutritional balancing, Minerals for the genetic code.
Through tedious note taking of my reactions to various minerals I was able to manipulate my way out of lot of my health symptoms and consider myself blessed to be able to have these in times of crisis.
Any how...through experimentation I discovered that I become numb and without emotions if my calcium levels are too high (or if I am too low in potassium or magnesium which balance calcium, or if I am taking a mineral that is blocking either of these minerals).
Perhaps you have read about the "calcium shell"?www.drlwilson.com/articles/… SHELL.htm
I had never even noticed the lack of feeling "thing" until I started to take notes. Now if I ever start to feel that way I lower my calcium intake and increase my greens. Green are the way to those happy feelings for a lot of people.
Tracy have you tried eating lots of greens when you crave sunshine? Chlorophyll is the green pigment in plants that harnesses the sun's energy in photosynthesis.
HTH
Through tedious note taking of my reactions to various minerals I was able to manipulate my way out of lot of my health symptoms and consider myself blessed to be able to have these in times of crisis.
Any how...through experimentation I discovered that I become numb and without emotions if my calcium levels are too high (or if I am too low in potassium or magnesium which balance calcium, or if I am taking a mineral that is blocking either of these minerals).
Perhaps you have read about the "calcium shell"?www.drlwilson.com/articles/… SHELL.htm
I had never even noticed the lack of feeling "thing" until I started to take notes. Now if I ever start to feel that way I lower my calcium intake and increase my greens. Green are the way to those happy feelings for a lot of people.
Tracy have you tried eating lots of greens when you crave sunshine? Chlorophyll is the green pigment in plants that harnesses the sun's energy in photosynthesis.
HTH
12 years ago
Tracy Mac
I am interested to have an explanation for my obsession with sunshine. I tried a light box but it didn't work. It's not light I crave, it's sunshine. It's winter here at the moment and I have been know to sob my way around the house going from window to window looking for sun. Then when I finally get outside into the sunshine I can't feel it! I lecture myself "Tracy, you wanted sunshine - you can see the sun is shining, you can feel the warmth on your skin - now enjoy it!" But try as I might I cannot get that yummy feeling that a walk in the sunshine on a crisp winter morning brings. This happened two weekends ago. I increased the Vitamin B & Sam-e and and within 24 hours I could feel sunshine again. Not like I used to, but enough to dry the tears.
It's so important psychologically and financially to stay at work. The challenge is to develop strategies to deal with the cognitive things which as you say, render you "incapable of thinking of the simplest words during conversations, walking into rooms and forgetting why etc." I have just had to develop strategies like glossing over these infractions at work when they are noticed, faking it and of course keeping lists upon lists and reminders on my computer. However when I was at rock bottom earlier in the year and thought I would have to resign, it was the anti-biotics that saved my job.
That's a very interesting article at Body Ecologie.
It's so important psychologically and financially to stay at work. The challenge is to develop strategies to deal with the cognitive things which as you say, render you "incapable of thinking of the simplest words during conversations, walking into rooms and forgetting why etc." I have just had to develop strategies like glossing over these infractions at work when they are noticed, faking it and of course keeping lists upon lists and reminders on my computer. However when I was at rock bottom earlier in the year and thought I would have to resign, it was the anti-biotics that saved my job.
That's a very interesting article at Body Ecologie.
12 years ago
Maff
Thanks for starting this valuable discussion Tracy. I can relate very much to what you said about the loss of feelings making it extremely hard to keep going. If I consume stimulants like caffeine, sugar, or thyroid hormones (T3), I am able to switch my brain on and experience what it's like to feel and think clearly and it is amazing - but it's also how we should feel all the time. I can still remember feeling like that every day despite it being half of my lifetime ago! Unfortunately the stimulants are no solution as I feel alive for a few hours then suffer the down/hangover side of it for 24-48 hours. Not really worth it. I have loads of psychological symptoms including depression that varies with the seasons and the weather, anxiety, restlessness, irritability, disrupted sleep, poor stress tolerence...the list is endless. Like Redo I also experience a lot of cognitive difficulties - those that are common in CFS such as frequently being incapable of thinking of the simplest words during conversations, walking into rooms and forgetting why etc.
The serotonin/histamine imbalance is certainly one factor that could contribute. This also impacts melatonin since this hormone is the next step on the biochemical pathway from serotonin - this can explain seasonal and weather-related mood fluctuations and SAD. There are many, many more mechanisms by which gut dysbiosis could cause psychological symptoms however. Some examples would be the production of alcohols, aldehydes, ammonia and hydrogen sulphide by gut microbes, all of which are neurotoxins. Then we have the potential for dysbiotic gut microbes to convert the amino acid building blocks of neurotransmitters into alternative molecules. For example, they "steal tryptophan and turn it into toxic metabolites rather than allowing the body to convert it into serotonin. Another factor of course is that dysbiosis results in nutritional deficiencies, particularly of B vitamins including B12 and folate - this causes methylation cycle issues - and the body then struggles to synthesise neurotransmitters including serotonin and dopamine. These are just off the top of my head but there are many more mechanisms for dysbiosis causing psychological symptoms I am sure. I have just published a Body Ecology article that discusses this subject (in general, not CFS-specific) and offers more explanations - www.ei-resource.org/expert-columns/body-ecology-diet/why-fermented-foods-may-be-the-next-big-antidepressant/
The serotonin/histamine imbalance is certainly one factor that could contribute. This also impacts melatonin since this hormone is the next step on the biochemical pathway from serotonin - this can explain seasonal and weather-related mood fluctuations and SAD. There are many, many more mechanisms by which gut dysbiosis could cause psychological symptoms however. Some examples would be the production of alcohols, aldehydes, ammonia and hydrogen sulphide by gut microbes, all of which are neurotoxins. Then we have the potential for dysbiotic gut microbes to convert the amino acid building blocks of neurotransmitters into alternative molecules. For example, they "steal tryptophan and turn it into toxic metabolites rather than allowing the body to convert it into serotonin. Another factor of course is that dysbiosis results in nutritional deficiencies, particularly of B vitamins including B12 and folate - this causes methylation cycle issues - and the body then struggles to synthesise neurotransmitters including serotonin and dopamine. These are just off the top of my head but there are many more mechanisms for dysbiosis causing psychological symptoms I am sure. I have just published a Body Ecology article that discusses this subject (in general, not CFS-specific) and offers more explanations - www.ei-resource.org/expert-columns/body-ecology-diet/why-fermented-foods-may-be-the-next-big-antidepressant/
12 years ago
Redozipous
Complete loss of feeling (for many, many years). And OCD like symptoms which as part of a relapse when using ARVs (they came in the period after ARVs, and where set off by stress + sugar).
The only thing which have (somewhat) alleviated the complete loss of feelings symptom is antibiotics (which only worked the /very first days/, before I slid back to not feeling anything again).
I've also got some symptoms I guess you could call autism like, which involves uncomfort socializing which goes beyond the brain fog, orienting problems and memory problems etc.
The only thing which have (somewhat) alleviated the complete loss of feelings symptom is antibiotics (which only worked the /very first days/, before I slid back to not feeling anything again).
I've also got some symptoms I guess you could call autism like, which involves uncomfort socializing which goes beyond the brain fog, orienting problems and memory problems etc.
12 years ago
